[ermd]

And I was looking forward to a serious debate, which there hasn't been here in some time.

It's a problem when everyone agrees on stuff.

We need Dave to come and say something controversial.

[Dave]

hey you cheeky. Donna got me over here but i am sad to say i dont think Korea should have nuclear weapons. However, i think the fact that they do is more than enough reason to have our own nuclear program cos if they are willing to stir things up when so many countries are nuclear powers would would happen if all civilised countries gave theres up!

[ermd]

Well, it doesn't look like the DPRK are going to have any method of actually delivering a nuclear weapon even to South Korea, never mind us.

Biggest thing that comes to my mind is that if the UN take economic sanctions against them:

a) Kim doesn't care a jot.
b) Portrays outside world as wrong-doers to the DPRK populace.
c) Last time it happened, they just sold their missiles. This time, they just sell their nukes.

[The Wedge Effect]

Well, for lack of controversial opinions, I may as well say something controversial.

I think Korea should keep their nuclear weapons because they rocks and Korea can nuke the USA!!!

[Red]

The fact of the matter is that North Korea is militerily and politically a wild dog. Brought up into communism with the backing of and financial/economic help of its comrades China and Russia it has now been deserted to remain one of the last remaining communist flavoured dictatorships. The country is completely isolated ruled internally with a 1984 style of blind following of a single leader the people believe they are living the best life possible and all problems and so threats to this life are a result of the West. The whole population are dominated under the total rule of their party government which prechs the honour of dieing in battle against the evil outside forces staging great military parades and martyring every dead soldier. Isolation only furthers their control on the people. So the idea of starting sanctions will only provoke their nuclear programme further into action and build further anger in the people creating a greater climate for war. North Korea is a devistatedly poor country looking for any way to live up to its previous aspirations of the great communist eutopia and nuclear war with capitalism would be a appealing choice to them.

[ermd]

...looking for any way to live up to its previous aspirations of the great communist eutopia

I doubt it is - they follow a state capitalist economic program with limited amounts of liberalised markets. And do you think Kim ever has any dream of the state "withering away". Unnnnlikely.

and nuclear war with capitalism would be a appealing choice to them.

I also doubt this. Kim is eccentric, not delusional.

[Red]

State controlled economy with little liberised makets is that not the hallmark of communist government well at least in practise anyway.Delusinal/eccentric same differnence Kim like any other dictator is self assured and capable of any attrocity he puts his mind to to justify. I cant say i no alot aboot the NK government and by not being a close personal friend o Kim i cant say wheather he is intllegnt, calculating or crazed so i dont no if they are still pretending to be communist or not im just guessin they still are. All im saying is NK is totally self contained without outside influences to bother any decision making Kim takes. Kim appears to be crazed judging by the way he controls and starves his own people and if he is still spewin his corrupted view of communism then any impending war will be painted as a fight against the west.

[ermd]

State controlled economy with little liberised makets is that not the hallmark of communist government

State-capitalism has nothing to do with communism though.

And I think you're making the one big mistake of forgetting that whilst the populace of the DPRK know nothing about the outside world, Kim knows every last detail.

Why would the DPRK attack anyone? It's not going to nuke the hand that feeds it.

[Red]

Why would the DPRK attack anyone? It's not going to nuke the hand that feeds it.

Thats the point im making though North Korea would attack other countries as no other country supports it there is no outside hand to feed it. All countries including their own allies have turned their back on the country leaving it completely alone against a world of countries who chose to sanction it and label it evil and as you said Kim does know this and im pretty sure hes not too happy about it especially Chinas decision to abandon them. The people of NK think what Kim tells them to think so if he has a mushroom cloud shaped chip on his shoulder so will the people.

I agree state capitalism isnt anything to do with communism of course not but the fact is that a true communist regime has never been implemented it has always become destorted and twisted into a dictatorship it happened with Stalin, it happened with Mao, it happened with Castro and its happened with Kim. All these supposed communist countries have followed the same blueprint of having an ambitious leader use communism against very right wing contolling government in charge using the poverty and death created by it to overthrow said government and come to power under the communist banner of equality and prosperity while in fact implimenting an even more totalitarian dictatorship in the previous governments place and leave the people as poor and hopeless as before except now they are ostrisized from the most powerful countries for being communist.

[Scott]

What the Americans love about Non-Proliferation is that removing the first 3 letters identifies their policy beautifully.

Like it or not the known Nuclear Powers know that there are unacknowledged Nuclear Powers too (Israel anyone?) and North Korea are on their way to joining that list (Iran too).

Disarmament will probably never happen, as long as our enemies continue to research the more bombs we make. You only have to hope that if North Korea make a working ICBM they don't get trigger happy.

The only way to work with North Korea is through China, but I'd eat my hat if they made any real progress on stopping their research. They know that any unprovoked attack on another nation would just lead to severe retaliation from the USA so I don't see any immediate danger.

[ermd]

Thats the point im making though North Korea would attack other countries as no other country supports it there is no outside hand to feed it.

China and South Korea provide nearly all of its food aid. Since the famine in the early 90s, food production never returned to the level it was previous to that (because for all the bullshit the regime like to spout about "self reliance", they can't replenish their machines, tractors etc. Most of that came from the USSR and China).

All countries including their own allies have turned their back on the country leaving it completely alone against a world of countries who chose to sanction it and label it evil and as you said Kim does know this and im pretty sure hes not too happy about it especially Chinas decision to abandon them.

China doesn't support it arming itself because China wants to get cozy with the Americans. And if sanctions are imposed on it, then as I said I really don't think it would be a good idea...to starve the people of the DPRK, to force Kim to potentially sell his nuclear technology or weapons to feed the army? Nah - pointless.