Warning: Illegal string offset 'html' in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php on line 909

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php:909) in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 114

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php:909) in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 127

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php:909) in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 136

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php:909) in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 137

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/hsn/public_html/forum/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_1/skin_topic.php:909) in /home/hsn/public_html/forum/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 141
The USSR - HSN forum

Jump to content


The USSR


10 replies to this topic

#1 ermd

    Fully Fledged Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,585 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:15 PM

This doesn't directly relate to the higher course, but for those interested in history it is an interesting read. If nothing else, its a lesson in having reliable sources. Most of the figures and horror stories we hear regarding the Soviet Union are rather extreme, but are simply false. I'm not some kind of Soviet apologist here either (I think the USSR was a disgrace, and Stalin probably did more damage to the socialist movement than any other one person), I merely think its important that when we judge history, we judge it knowing the truth.

Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union.

#2 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:55 PM

Is he actually trying to deny that there was a famine in Ukraine? That's what it seems like from a quick skim over certain bits.
Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/

#3 ermd

    Fully Fledged Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,585 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 07 February 2007 - 12:20 AM

No, but he refutes the alleged scale of it and that it was purposely provoked by Stalin's regime:

"This great class struggle, involving directly or indirectly some 120 million peasants, certainly gave rise to instability in agricultural production and food shortages in some regions. Lack of food did weaken people, which in turn led to an increase in the number falling victim to epidemic diseases. These diseases were at that time regrettably common throughout the world."

"Nevertheless the millions said to have died of starvation according to the Hearst press in America, parroted in books and films, was completely false information. The Canadian journalist, Douglas Tottle, meticulously exposed the falsifications in his book 'Fraud, famine and fascism - the Ukrainian genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard', published in Toronto in 1987. Among other things, Tottle proved that the photographic material used, horrifying photographs of starving children, had been taken from 1922 publications at a time when millions of people did die from hunger and war conditions because eight foreign armies had invaded the Soviet Union during the Civil War of 1918-1921."

Edit: Here's a link to that Douglas Tottle book too, incase you want to check any of that out.

#4 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:00 PM

Stalin's collectivisation programme is not solely to blame for the famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine, as is indicated by earlier papers, some arguably propagandist. Even though food shortages became more common after collectivisation was introduced, peasants found to be hiding grain still had all their property seized and their families deported by the huge secret police force. I think starvation largely caused the civil war, although the when civil war got under way it exacerbated the problems of food shortages. Drought was partly to blame for the 1932-33 famine but it was drought compounded with the collectivisation of agriculture programme that made it such a large scale disaster. Unfortunately, at the same time as Cossacks were starving to death, butter was being exported to Western Europe. I can't read the article you posted the link to because of my poor internet connection at the moment and lack of time, but I read good things about it.

Glaskow, Wasili History of the Cossacks (New York, 1972) p. 136
(Kravchenko in) Gregorovich, Andrew Black Famine in Ukraine 1932-33: A Struggle for Existence (1974): http://209.82.14.226/history/famine/gregorovich/
Wheatcroft, Stephen (ed.) Challenging Traditional Views of Russian History, Slavic Review (New York, 2002)

Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/

#5 ermd

    Fully Fledged Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,585 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:36 PM

From memory there was a particularly difficult period in 1931-32 in terms of climate. It was too cold during the sowing season and then far too hot during the growing season (irregular continental winds blowing across the steppes?)...all of which contributed to the famine. I don't doubt that forced collectivisation was partly to blame either, obviously some peasants would resist that (especially with the Ukrainian nationalists working against the Soviets). The management committees sent from the regional Soviets to the collectivised land were probably partly to blame too - what do industrial workers, teachers and bureaucrats really know about agriculture.

I always wondered though, supposing the forced collectivisation of agriculture and rapid industrialisation of the USSR had not taken place...it may have saved some lives at the time, but what consequences would it have had come WWII? I'm inclined to think Hitler would have crushed the Soviet Union.

It's amazing how the birth, death, and decisions of one man can change the course of history so greatly.

And I have the same problem with the pdf...the university aren't very generous with their bandwidth allowances. =/

#6 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:07 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Feb 7 2007, 04:36 PM) View Post
I always wondered though, supposing the forced collectivisation of agriculture and rapid industrialisation of the USSR had not taken place...it may have saved some lives at the time, but what consequences would it have had come WWII? I'm inclined to think Hitler would have crushed the Soviet Union.

I don't see how Hitler wouldn't have been beaten if it wasn't for the collectivisation of agriculture.
Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/

#7 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 March 2007 - 12:11 AM

Here are some photos from the 1932-33 famine:

http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine...tos.php?1#photo
Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/

#8 ermd

    Fully Fledged Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,585 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 March 2007 - 10:58 AM

They look pretty horrific, no doubt. But there's no way they can actually be verified as coming from the 1932-33 famine. How can I know that these aren't the same photos which were used as anti-Soviet propoganda and then actually turned out to be from the civil war period? I don't have the slightest clue what any of the text on the site actually says and the photos are that small that I can't tell what I'm even meant to be looking at in some of them. =/

And I don't think the Ukranian government is really a neutral, unbiased source on this are they? They recently labelled it a "genocide" so their minds are already made up on this being a deliberate act.

#9 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 March 2007 - 08:53 PM

My girlfriend is Ukrainian and has been told about such terrible scenes by older generations who were around at the time. And Ukraine is not the only country to recognise the famine as an act of genocide (e.g. Poland did so last year). It isn't such a big deal if it is given the name 'genocide' or not anyway, what is more important is that people know what happened.
Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/

#10 ermd

    Fully Fledged Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,585 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 13 March 2007 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE(bred @ Mar 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
My girlfriend is Ukrainian and has been told about such terrible scenes by older generations who were around at the time.


I don't see how that could qualify as a historical souce.

QUOTE(bred @ Mar 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
And Ukraine is not the only country to recognise the famine as an act of genocide (e.g. Poland did so last year). It isn't such a big deal if it is given the name 'genocide' or not anyway, what is more important is that people know what happened.


Obviously the label of genocide doesn't change the number of people who died or how horrific the suffering was, but it does make clear the fact that they believe it was done on purpose to wipe out a specific ethnic or racial group. If the famine was engineered by the Stalinist bureaucracy, I fail to see what specific ethnic or racial group was targetted. It was not only the Ukraine that suffered in 1932-33.

#11 bred

    Brendan

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,215 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh
  • Interests:I have just graduated with a 2:1 in Geography [MA (Hons)] from The University of Edinburgh. I like sports: swimming, cycling, snowboarding, running, football, mountain biking and also travelling and photography.
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 March 2007 - 06:25 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Mar 13 2007, 06:00 PM) View Post
QUOTE(bred @ Mar 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
My girlfriend is Ukrainian and has been told about such terrible scenes by older generations who were around at the time.


I don't see how that could qualify as a historical souce.



I don't see how, in this circumstance, sources can come any better than a first hand account. I don't see why my girlfriend's gran would lie to her about her memories.

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Mar 13 2007, 06:00 PM) View Post
Obviously the label of genocide doesn't change the number of people who died or how horrific the suffering was, but it does make clear the fact that they believe it was done on purpose to wipe out a specific ethnic or racial group. If the famine was engineered by the Stalinist bureaucracy, I fail to see what specific ethnic or racial group was targetted. It was not only the Ukraine that suffered in 1932-33.


Ukraine was targetted specifically and suffered much more than any other country. Both Richard Overy and Robert Conquest recognise that >70% killed in the 1932-3 famine were Ukrainians.
Please vote for me! (Brendan Howard, 5th from bottom, only 1 vote required): http://answers.polld...m/poll/2330393/





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users