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The Holocaust - HSN forum

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The Holocaust


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#1 bred

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE(United States Holocaust Memorial Museum)
The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during WWII.

During WWII, the Nazis designed camps with the specific intent of exterminating the entire Jewish population. The first of the dedicated extermination camps to begin operation was Auschwitz Birkenau in September 1941. From 1933 (Hitler's first year in power) concentration camps had been set up in which many Jews had already died.

Ermdeviation was uncertain that the Holocaust took place because he had read there is no evidence of human remains at the sites of the extermination camps. However, the evidence is out there and is insurmountable - one must simply note the six million Jews that "disappeared" from Europe during the Holocaust, the photographic and video evidence from the concentration camps, the documents relating to the concentration camps, the admissions at the Nuremberg Trials relating to the Holocaust, the physical remains of the camps, the stories of the prisoners, employees, and officers of the camps, etc. My own step gran's father was a cleaner (that's what my step gran says at least) at Sachsenhausen concentration camp where around 100,000 people died. She admits what was done to the Jews was "very bad" - clearly not acknowledging the scale of horror.

Regarding ermdeviation's specific request that evidence be put forward proving that human remains were found as the sites of the extermination camps, here is one particular source:

QUOTE(Franciszek Piper's Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp p. 179n)
In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum.


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#2 ermd

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 12:03 AM

QUOTE(bred @ Apr 27 2006, 04:54 PM) View Post

Ermdeviation was uncertain that the Holocaust took place...


I would just like to point out that I was not uncertain as to whether it took place...simply questioning one aspect of it. Of course, the "missing" 6 million Jews was always a big hint, a point I have made when faced with Neo-Nazi holocaust deniers.

#3 bred

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 07:30 AM

Forgive me from interpreting that from when you said it was a guess "at best" to claim the Holocaust was not made up by the West as a means of propoganda.
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#4 ermd

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 08:46 AM

Haha, yeah...that sentence didn't quite come out like it was meant to. Oh, there is one more thing I have thought of - weren't a lot of the confessions at Nuremberg allegedly tortured out of the German officers?

#5 bred

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 09:29 AM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Apr 28 2006, 09:46 AM) View Post

Oh, there is one more thing I have thought of - weren't a lot of the confessions at Nuremberg allegedly tortured out of the German officers?


Some people have alleged that defendants were beaten in an attempt to force confessions. However, this allegation doesn't seem to be widely supported. Regardless of whether or not the defendants were willing or not to admit the truth, the evidence was of course insurmountable.
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#6 mystic

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 11:14 AM

i think the memories of thoose who lived through this time is enough for the evidence inmy eyes, its one of thoose times in life which no human should be proud of as it showed how badly things can go wrong, the people who went through it partly went through it due to a pyscologtis(can't spell)
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#7 bred

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 11:48 AM

QUOTE(gizmo aka ernie! @ Apr 30 2006, 12:14 PM) View Post

the people who went through it partly went through it due to a pyscologtis(can't spell)
gizmo
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I don't know what you're saying here, could you expand please?
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#8 mystic

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 05:48 PM

tey think they found evidence that after ww1 hitler was in shell shock and a pscologyist managed to convince him that he could be a god and he considered himself to be riding the earth of evil, its wrong but thats only 1 theregy to the evil he placed on those people.
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#9 bred

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 07:09 PM

Ah, yes:

The future Fuhrer was hypnotized in the military hospital where he was brought in October 1918 in a difficult psychological condition: he persuaded himself that he had lost his eyesight after the gas attack. Hitler considered himself to become completely blind although the doctors claimed his eyesight was normal.

Dr Edmund Foster understood the patient's problem and decided to cure him with hypnosis. He told Hitler that he had become blind indeed, but as God made him an exceptional person he could obtain eyesight again by his will power.

Dr Foster was able to make the patient believe in himself and Hitler recovered his eyesight.

It impressed him so much that for the rest of his life he believed in his extraordinary abilities.

Edmund Foster was killed by Gestapo in 1933 when he tried to publish outside Germany the psychological portrait of Chancellor Hitler and tell about the psychological tests he underwent.


Hitler did believe he was doing as God willed him to by murdering Jews.
QUOTE(Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf 1925)
...I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
He did not however, think of himself as God, and his encounter with Dr Foster during his hospitalisation at the end of WWI would have had little lasting effect on him. It would be wrong to try to lift blame from Hitler. Hitler may have thought very highly of himself but he didn't think of himself as God. He remained a Catholic throughout his life and said that he admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than any other German. Indeed, the first large scale pogrom of Jews was arranged "in honour" of Luther's birthday in November 1938.

President of the USA, George W. Bush is of course the most famous recent example of a man that thinks he has been chosen by God to lead a nation:
QUOTE(George Bush speaking to James Robinson in the run up to the 2000 Presidential Election)
I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.

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#10 dehny

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 08:37 PM

Technically speaking the Holocaust was the mechanised murder of those deemed unfit to live, by the Nazis.

But for some reason the other 6-7 million people are widely forgotten.

The Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe is a better title for the jewish murders.
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#11 ermd

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:17 PM

QUOTE(dehny @ Apr 30 2006, 09:37 PM) View Post

But for some reason the other 6-7 million people are widely forgotten.


Yeah...pfft...filthy slavs, eh? rolleyes.gif


QUOTE(bred @ Apr 30 2006, 08:09 PM) View Post

President of the USA, George W. Bush is of course the most famous recent example of a man that thinks he has been chosen by God to lead a nation:
QUOTE(George Bush speaking to James Robinson in the run up to the 2000 Presidential Election)
I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.



Didn't he also say that God told him to invade Iraq? And told him to get a Palestinian state?

The man is a joke...God talking to him. HAHAHA.

#12 bred

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE(dehny @ Apr 30 2006, 09:37 PM) View Post

Technically speaking the Holocaust was the mechanised murder of those deemed unfit to live, by the Nazis.

But for some reason the other 6-7 million people are widely forgotten.

The Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe is a better title for the jewish murders.

The term "Holocaust" can be used to refer exclusively to the systematic murder of the Jews by the Nazis, or to the murder of Jews and other groups by the Nazis. Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals and handicapped people were also victims of systematic murder.

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Apr 30 2006, 10:17 PM) View Post

Didn't he also say that God told him to invade Iraq? And told him to get a Palestinian state?

The man is a joke...God talking to him. HAHAHA.

Yeah, that too. This is sort of going off topic, but the Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said:
QUOTE(BBC Broadcast in October 2005)
President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

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#13 dehny

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE(bred @ Apr 30 2006, 10:25 PM) View Post

QUOTE(dehny @ Apr 30 2006, 09:37 PM) View Post

Technically speaking the Holocaust was the mechanised murder of those deemed unfit to live, by the Nazis.

But for some reason the other 6-7 million people are widely forgotten.

The Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe is a better title for the jewish murders.

The term "Holocaust" can be used to refer exclusively to the systematic murder of the Jews by the Nazis, or to the murder of Jews and other groups by the Nazis. Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals and handicapped people were also victims of systematic murder.



so if the term Holocaust can mean only the Jewish murders what of the 6 million or so other muders what are they called?


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#14 bred

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 11:06 PM

They are most often grouped together under the term "Holocaust". The terms "Slavic Holocaust", "Gypsy Holocaust", "Homosexual Holocaust" and "Disabled Holocaust" or "Handicapped Holocaust" are also sometimes used.
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#15 ice_illusion

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 11:55 PM

Rwanda - 1994 - 800 000
Guatemala - 200 000
Cambodian - 1975 to 1979 - 1.7million
Ukraine - 1932 - 7 million (mainly starvation but caused by gov.)

I know the Holocaust was terrible and there was a lot of people died but sometimes it seems a bit like "Oh look, we played such a big part in ending that, lets tell everyone about it and forget about everything else" It shouldn't be forgotten but theres a lot of lessons to be learned from other genocides but if they were ignored (or even supported in some cases) they get pushed under the rug a bit.

#16 bred

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 12:17 AM

Also, around 40 million people died under Mao Zedong's regime (including around 30 million that died in the famine that resulted from Mao's "Great Leap Forward"), probably at least 13 million under Stalin's regime (excluding those that died as a result of famine in the Ukraine that you have already mentioned) and around 2.1 million Germans as a result of their expulsion from Eastern Europe after WWII.
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#17 dehny

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 10:39 AM

so basically what history tells us is, people die, get over it ?
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#18 bred

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 11:19 AM

Of course people die, but the murder of Jews and other groups under Hitler was genocide of a systematic nature never seen before, a horrific event that everyone should recognise.
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#19 ermd

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 02:19 PM

QUOTE(ice_illusion @ May 1 2006, 12:55 AM) View Post

Ukraine - 1932 - 7 million (mainly starvation but caused by gov.)


That is a figure based on Robert Conquest's work. This has been totally discredited many times over, and should not be taken as correct. The man's work is complete joke.


In 1949 Naum Jasny, a Russian émigré economist, estimated that 5.5 million people died in the famine. By 1961, realizing he had misunderstood the census data, Jasny had revised his estimate to "hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million" in the whole USSR who "died in the winter of 1932/33." In the light of all responsible research, this figure appears reasonable.


This guy left Russia for political reasons. He was an anti-communist. But he recognises his duty to tell the truth over such matters, not rely on heasrsay and downright lies, like Robert Conquest.

#20 bred

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 04:36 PM

The famine didn't end after the 1932/33 winter though.

Shocking fact: in 1933 the life expectancy at birth was only 7 years for a Ukrainian male and only 10 years for a Ukrainian female, lower than that of any other European country at any point in the 20th Century.
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