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Poll: Are you in favour of compulsory ID Cards? (20 member(s) have cast votes)

Are you in favour of compulsory ID Cards?

  1. Yes (7 votes [35.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.00%

  2. No (11 votes [55.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.00%

  3. Not Sure (2 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#1 djh1878

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 11:36 PM

Clicky

Yep, they're getting closer, after the government won their vote tonight. Bugger. mad.gif

£90 for a card that carries all your details and puts you on a database with your every detail....just the type of civil liberties that the government wants to protect, eh? rolleyes.gif I know I'll be doing everything to avoid getting one. wink.gif

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#2 YIC

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 11:38 PM

yeh the id cards idea sucks

#3 Dave

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 11:48 PM

i seriously dont see the problem. There is no difference from having a driving licence or being a taxpayer. Having an ID card wont mean any difference for most people really. Will be useful for pubs and buying things on HP.

If i am not here i am somewhere else



#4 YIC

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:03 AM

it is not just about carrying it around, it is also about other issues, such as the cost, knowing that the government knows everything about you. Also, will they actually work?


QUOTE
Problems the ID Card scheme is meant to solve
How will ID cards protect us from the threat of terrorism?

They won't.
Despite evidence that the biggest threat of terrorism is home-grown, arguments that ID cards will ‘protect’ us from foreign-born terrorists continue to grow.  This is simply not the case.  Foreigners who are in the UK for three months or less will not have to carry one.  Three months is plenty of time to arrive, plant a bomb and leave again.  To those who are resident and will have to carry them, an ID card will deter them no less than, say, a bus pass.
The July 7 bombers actually carried credit cards with them to identify them after the bombings, because they wanted to be recognized as martyrs.  They would have been equally capable of carrying out the attacks with ID cards in their pockets.

What will this do to combat illegal working?

It will almost certainly encourage it.  Other countries such as Spain, which do have identity cards, have similar levels of illegal working.
At present, under the current barrage of Immigration Acts, an employer who employs illegal immigrants faces heavy penalties.  To demonstrate that they acted in good faith, they must show that upon employing the person, they have shown a recent (last three months) document from the Home Office confirming the employee’s entitlement to work.
If a person enters the UK for more than three months, and is entitled to work, they will be given an identity card.  The employer will now only have to check the identity card in order to employ this person.  If they overstay their visa (for example, a person on a one year’s working holiday-maker’s visa, who stays for six years) but are in possession of an identity card, it will be very easy for them to remain - illegally - in employment.

How will ID cards and the NIR help tackle identity fraud?

In theory, it will be impossible to have more than one identity, because it will be impossible to obtain an ID card in more than one name – your biometrics will already be on the database, thus alerting the official to the fact that you have an ID card already.
This of course presupposes that the sort of people who want multiple identities are otherwise law-abiding types, who will bother to go down to the local registration centre to register more than once.  It ignores the fact that criminal gangs will almost certainly be able to forge multiple ID cards.  In reality, therefore, identity fraud will remain a problem but the organized gangs will make enormous profits.
This will lead to a situation where benefit fraud, opening multiple bank accounts, obtaining multiple loans etc. is made easier – because the biometrics are unlikely to be checked on every single one of these minor transactions.  The card will be looked over by an official and if all seems well, the transaction will be processed.  Spot checks are more likely to occur as it will be impossible to check the biometrics on every occasion.

How will ID cards and the NIR help tackle identity fraud?

They won’t.  However sophisticated the technology is, it is unlikely that an organised criminal gang will be unable to reproduce the cards.  This means that benefit fraud will become easier in many respects – if a person claims twice in their own name, as happens now, they are often caught.  If they claim in multiple (forged) identities, it will be much harder to prevent.


http://www.no2id.org/IDSchemes/FAQ/problemsSolved.php

#5 cc100

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:09 AM

I don't really see how they will work either tbh. Bit of a waste of money if you ask me.
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#6 *sofax*

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 03:44 PM

I don't see the problem with them but don't want to pay £90 for one!!
*a wee drop of heaven*

x sophie x

#7 south lanarkshire jag

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 03:46 PM

whats the point in them?

there is none and to make us pay for them is just cheek

thist is just a way to top up Tony Blairs pension fund

#8 ermd

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:56 PM

No. Not in favour at all. Iris scans, fingerprints, facial feature recognition - can you say totalitarianism?

New Labour spouting more (and increasingly) authoritarian policies. Not only this ID card nonesense, but did any of you know that from 2006 nearly every car journey in the UK is being watched, your license plate recorded and a record kept of where you went and when? Your movements are being watched.

Then we have the hundreds of thousands of people who are on the police DNA database. Even though they have never been convicted of a crime. Not been cautioned either. Infact, they have never even been CHARGED with an offence at all. And if I remember my figures right, over 24,000 of them are children. The state's eyes are all seeing.

For every seven people in the UK, there is one camera watching you.

The state is stealing away our freedom, one drop at a time. Just because it is happening slowly is no reason to ignore it.

People were not watched this closely in the authoritarian regimes of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco's Spain or Stalinist USSR. Why are we letting the state watch us so closely now?

Guard your freedoms, lest they be lost without you even noticing.

#9 Nathan

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Feb 14 2006, 05:56 PM)
No. Not in favour at all. Iris scans, fingerprints, facial feature recognition - can you say totalitarianism?

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i cant actually, but i get what you mean laugh.gif

#10 ermd

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE(nathanm @ Feb 14 2006, 06:41 PM)
QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Feb 14 2006, 05:56 PM)
No. Not in favour at all. Iris scans, fingerprints, facial feature recognition - can you say totalitarianism?

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i cant actually, but i get what you mean laugh.gif

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ohmy.gif NO JOKES! mad.gif mad.gif


biggrin.gif tongue.gif

#11 AppleCore

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 07:10 PM

voted no. its a bit obsessive, thats why. soon it will become like the movie "Minority Report", which i dont want.

#12 Dave

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 10:42 PM

do you think u can fake a biometric passport? i would say no and that is the reason for them.

Reason for ID cards is really quite simple...to provide ID of people in this country. Assuming you arent into breaking the law i dont see a problem (same goes for being on the DNA database)

If i am not here i am somewhere else



#13 John

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 06:29 AM

For once i agree with Dave tongue.gif

#14 djh1878

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Feb 14 2006, 05:56 PM)
No. Not in favour at all. Iris scans, fingerprints, facial feature recognition - can you say totalitarianism?

New Labour spouting more (and increasingly) authoritarian policies. Not only this ID card nonesense, but did any of you know that from 2006 nearly every car journey in the UK is being watched, your license plate recorded and a record kept of where you went and when? Your movements are being watched.

Then we have the hundreds of thousands of people who are on the police DNA database. Even though they have never been convicted of a crime. Not been cautioned either. Infact, they have never even been CHARGED with an offence at all. And if I remember my figures right, over 24,000 of them are children. The state's eyes are all seeing.

For every seven people in the UK, there is one camera watching you.

The state is stealing away our freedom, one drop at a time. Just because it is happening slowly is no reason to ignore it.

People were not watched this closely in the authoritarian regimes of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco's Spain or Stalinist USSR. Why are we letting the state watch us so closely now?

Guard your freedoms, lest they be lost without you even noticing.

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#15 ermd

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 06:15 PM

QUOTE(Dave @ Feb 14 2006, 10:42 PM)
do you think u can fake a biometric passport? i would say no and that is the reason for them.

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So we should carry them just because they can't be faked? How about giving us some decent arguments, Dave. Y'know, some actual reasons.

And actually, it is surprisingly easy to fake. This article reports on how a Japanese cryptographer was able to fool fingerprint scanners 80% of the time using $10 worth of household goods.

QUOTE
Fun with Fingerprint Readers

Tsutomu Matsumoto, a Japanese cryptographer, recently decided to look at biometric fingerprint devices. These are security systems that attempt to identify people based on their fingerprint. For years the companies selling these devices have claimed that they are very secure, and that it is almost impossible to fool them into accepting a fake finger as genuine. Matsumoto, along with his students at the Yokohama National University, showed that they can be reliably fooled with a little ingenuity and $10 worth of household supplies.

Matsumoto uses gelatin, the stuff that Gummi Bears are made out of. First he takes a live finger and makes a plastic mold. (He uses a free-molding plastic used to make plastic molds, and is sold at hobby shops.) Then he pours liquid gelatin into the mold and lets it harden. (The gelatin comes in solid sheets, and is used to make jellied meats, soups, and candies, and is sold in grocery stores.) This gelatin fake finger fools fingerprint detectors about 80% of the time.

His more interesting experiment involves latent fingerprints. He takes a fingerprint left on a piece of glass, enhances it with a cyanoacrylate adhesive, and then photographs it with a digital camera. Using PhotoShop, he improves the contrast and prints the fingerprint onto a transparency sheet. Then, he takes a photo-sensitive printed-circuit board (PCB) and uses the fingerprint transparency to etch the fingerprint into the copper, making it three-dimensional. (You can find photo-sensitive PCBs, along with instructions for use, in most electronics hobby shops.) Finally, he makes a gelatin finger using the print on the PCB. This also fools fingerprint detectors about 80% of the time.

Gummy fingers can even fool sensors being watched by guards. Simply form the clear gelatin finger over your own. This lets you hide it as you press your own finger onto the sensor. After it lets you in, eat the evidence.

Matsumoto tried these attacks against eleven commercially available fingerprint biometric systems, and was able to reliably fool all of them. The results are enough to scrap the systems completely, and to send the various fingerprint biometric companies packing. Impressive is an understatement.

There's both a specific and a general moral to take away from this result. Matsumoto is not a professional fake-finger scientist; he's a mathematician. He didn't use expensive equipment or a specialized laboratory. He used $10 of ingredients you could buy, and whipped up his gummy fingers in the equivalent of a home kitchen. And he defeated eleven different commercial fingerprint readers, with both optical and capacitive sensors, and some with "live finger detection" features. (Moistening the gummy finger helps defeat sensors that measure moisture or electrical resistance; it takes some practice to get it right.) If he could do this, then any semi-professional can almost certainly do much much more.

More generally, be very careful before believing claims from security companies. All the fingerprint companies have claimed for years that this kind of thing is impossible. When they read Matsumoto's results, they're going to claim that they don't really work, or that they don't apply to them, or that they've fixed the problem. Think twice before believing them.

Matsumoto's paper is not on the Web. You can get a copy by asking:
Tsutomu Matsumoto <tsutomu@mlab.jks.ynu.ac.jp>

Here's the reference:
T. Matsumoto, H. Matsumoto, K. Yamada, S. Hoshino, "Impact of Artificial Gummy Fingers on Fingerprint Systems," Proceedings of SPIE Vol. #4677, Optical Security and Counterfeit Deterrence Techniques IV, 2002.


QUOTE(Dave @ Feb 14 2006, 10:42 PM)
Reason for ID cards is really quite simple...to provide ID of people in this country. Assuming you arent into breaking the law i dont see a problem (same goes for being on the DNA database)

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Ah yes. The expected comeback - "if you've got nothing to hide, what's the problem?" Sounds nice doesn't it? A nice wee catchphrase which sums up a delusional point of view. It doesn't hold up at all. Because if it did, Stalin's USSR, Apartheid South Africa, Fascist Italy etc. would all have been wonderful places to live. Do you think they were?

We already have many forms of ID. Introducing another one will not be beneficial whatsoever. Didn't you read YIC's post? All the claims initially made by New Labour about them have been totally smashed apart. There is no worthwhile use of these cards at all.

So, would you like some more reasons?

Firstly - these methods of identification and detection are NOT reliable. Haven't you been keeping pace with the news? The complete debacle surrounding the Scottish Criminal Records Office and the use of fingerprinting? Add that to the article quoted above and there's enough reason already.

Iris scanning equipment can be totally fooled simply using a high-resolution printout of an eye! Not to mention the fact that someone could just wear contact lenses to fool it.

Secondly - principle. Why should the state have those kind of records on its citizens? I have no problem at all with voluntary ID. But the fact that we are being forced by the state to be essentially tagged and recorded is an absolute disgrace. It doesn't actually make sense - protect our freedoms by taking them away!?!

Thirdly - cost. New Labour tell us that this will supposedly cost £90 for each card. This figure has been shown to be completely false. It's not like government IT programs tend to go to plan or to cost. The figure is likely to be much closer £300 (from an LSE study). Then you have to take into account that these would have to be redone every 5 years (biometric aspects change).

Fourthly - security. The card itself is one area. What about the massive central database containing your data. It will implemented by a private company, looking for profits. How do we know it will be secure? There is a pretty basic rule to follow in IT security: a more secure system has fewer access points; a less secure system has more access points. There will be tens of thousands of access points. Not exactly secure. How long before Civil Servants start taking kickbacks to get people fake IDs? How long before the companies who implemented them start taking kickbacks to fix the gaping security holes?

Want an example? The Dutch biometric passport system was cracked recently. All it required was to be within 10 metres, then use a high gain amplifier to pick up the data which could then be totally cracked on a PC within 2 hours. Source.

Finally, if I have to supply non-arguable proof of my identity to get a card in the first place, what is the point! It is similar to a story that comedian Bill Bailey tells:

"I used to work as a door-to-door salesman. Any idea what I was selling? Doors! That's a tough gig and no mistake. Here's how it would go:

Bill: -walks to door and presses bell-

Bing bong!

Bill: Hello, can I interest you in...oh shit - you've already got one."

Anyway, I wish I could stay and write more on this subject, since I'm really getting into this here but I have work to do! Have fun with that stuff for now wink.gif.

Edit: Just need to add:

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#16 YIC

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 06:35 PM

laugh.gif thumbsup.gif





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