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#21 KhalidBoussouara

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 11 2005, 06:10 PM)
[sarcasm]
Yeah, because we can see that working in Iraq every single day can't we?
[/sarcasm]

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Well what else do you suggest? If I was a taxpayer I wouldn't want my tax money paying for some dictators new mercedes. If aid does not get to the people who need it then why throw our money away? The poor people will die either way.
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#22 dondon

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:18 AM


if the money isnt getting to the people there is obviously something wrong with the way that it is given to the countries. it should be given directly to the people and not the government and put into the right services


#23 ermd

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE(KhalidBoussouara @ Jun 11 2005, 06:56 PM)
Well what else do you suggest? If I was a taxpayer I wouldn't want my tax money paying for some dictators new mercedes. If aid does not get to the people who need it then why throw our money away? The poor people will die either way.

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I would suggest that an illegal war costing over $200,000,000,000 is a lot more taxpayers' money which you should be concerned about than will ever be given in aid. Taxpayers' money that has paid for the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians.

A war was not the way to correct the situation in Iraq. The country is a far worse place to live in now than at any tme under Saddam's reign, even during the height of UN sancitons. And for you to be naive enough to believe that a war waged by rich foreign countries will ever result in democracy for the poor country on the other end, I find unbelievable.

Edit: What do you count as a true democracy anyway? The US system, our system?

#24 AppleCore

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 12 2005, 08:16 PM)
QUOTE(KhalidBoussouara @ Jun 11 2005, 06:56 PM)
Well what else do you suggest? If I was a taxpayer I wouldn't want my tax money paying for some dictators new mercedes. If aid does not get to the people who need it then why throw our money away? The poor people will die either way.

View Post



I would suggest that an illegal war costing over $200,000,000,000 is a lot more taxpayers' money which you should be concerned about than will ever be given in aid. Taxpayers' money that has paid for the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians.

A war was not the way to correct the situation in Iraq. The country is a far worse place to live in now than at any tme under Saddam's reign, even during the height of UN sancitons. And for you to be naive enough to believe that a war waged by rich foreign countries will ever result in democracy for the poor country on the other end, I find unbelievable.

Edit: What do you count as a true democracy anyway? The US system, our system?

View Post



first paragraph .. yeah, totally agree!! good point!

the bold highlighted point... well.. think about it this way.. every country that has gone through war at any time during history in the place/land that has been distructed will go through economic depravation. it could be for a long time and it could be for a short time. i dont agree with them going to war at all, in fact if i had my way, id be removing the ned-y "George 4 tony" sign (taking them both out), but since the war, it will take time for the country to recover and democracy will occur only if the right measures are taken now (suspect it wont happen if the US decide half the bloody leaders of the country anyways.. or all for that matter).

both countried are "democratic" in their own way laugh.gif

#25 ermd

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

the bold highlighted point... well.. think about it this way.. every country that has gone through war at any time during history in the place/land that has been distructed will go through economic depravation.

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I'm not talking about economic deprivation though. I'm talking about the fact that the services and infrastructure have been privatised, along with the oil fields. Under Saddam, at least the whole population could get the basics required to live.


QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

it will take time for the country to recover and democracy will occur only if the right measures are taken now (suspect it wont happen if the US decide half the bloody leaders of the country anyways.. or all for that matter).

View Post



Democracy will not exist in Iraq unless the Iraqi people are willing to remove the Americans and their puppets from power. Vive la revolution!

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

both countried are "democratic" in their own way  laugh.gif

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Yeah, "in their own way" definitely tongue.gif . Democracy in the USA means that power and freedom is a commodity to be bought and sold. And here in the UK, well, it means a media drudge through the boring centre-right of politics with a mundane debate over issues regarding managerial competence. And our ancient parliamentary system leaves a lot to be desired.

#26 AppleCore

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 12 2005, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

the bold highlighted point... well.. think about it this way.. every country that has gone through war at any time during history in the place/land that has been distructed will go through economic depravation.

View Post



I'm not talking about economic deprivation though. I'm talking about the fact that the services and infrastructure have been privatised, along with the oil fields. Under Saddam, at least the whole population could get the basics required to live.


QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

it will take time for the country to recover and democracy will occur only if the right measures are taken now (suspect it wont happen if the US decide half the bloody leaders of the country anyways.. or all for that matter).

View Post



Democracy will not exist in Iraq unless the Iraqi people are willing to remove the Americans and their puppets from power. Vive la revolution!

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 12 2005, 09:06 PM)

both countried are "democratic" in their own way  laugh.gif

View Post



Yeah, "in their own way" definitely tongue.gif . Democracy in the USA means that power and freedom is a commodity to be bought and sold. And here in the UK, well, it means a media drudge through the boring centre-right of politics with a mundane debate over issues regarding managerial competence. And our ancient parliamentary system leaves a lot to be desired.

View Post



IN BOLD yikes, now that is bad, im all for privatisation, but when it comes to infrastructure, thats one thing that I will agree has to be National. oh and the oil fields, well i thought thats why the americans went there in the first place???

IN Italics yeah! true. i suspect the Americans will do to Iraq what the British did to India. Strip the country of all their "physical" wealth and leave them to get back on their "crippled" feet.

In Underlined but that is still seen as a democracy.

#27 ermd

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 02:19 PM

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 14 2005, 12:08 AM)
IN BOLD yikes, now that is bad, im all for privatisation, but when it comes to infrastructure, thats one thing that I will agree has to be National. oh and the oil fields, well i thought thats why the americans went there in the first place???

View Post


Yeah, the privatisation will cripple Iraq. I believe its these neo-liberal economic policies which aer included in the conditions of the African aid too.

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 14 2005, 12:08 AM)
IN Italics yeah! true. i suspect the Americans will do to Iraq what the British did to India. Strip the country of all their "physical" wealth and leave them to get back on their "crippled" feet.

View Post


Indeed...the oil wealth is vital to Iraq's recovery, but with the oil fields now under the US corporation's control, they are screwed.

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 14 2005, 12:08 AM)
In Underlined but that is still seen as a democracy.

View Post


I wouldn't have said so. "Democracy" means a system of government where the government is representative of the wishes of the population. The USA is most definately not that! When one man gets less votes and still wins, that is no democracy.

#28 Discogirl17

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE
When one man gets less votes and still wins, that is no democracy.


You are aware thats what happens in Britain with the FPTP system right?


Half ideas,half quality, half a million pound law suit!

#29 ermd

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE(Discogirl17 @ Jun 14 2005, 07:12 PM)
You are aware thats what happens in Britain with the FPTP system right?

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Yup, fully aware. Infact, if I rumaged back through the threads, then I'm sure I got figures on how badly it affects smaller parties.

The American system is a FPTP system too, just even less democratic than our own.

#30 AppleCore

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 14 2005, 09:16 PM)
QUOTE(Discogirl17 @ Jun 14 2005, 07:12 PM)
You are aware thats what happens in Britain with the FPTP system right?

View Post


Yup, fully aware. Infact, if I rumaged back through the threads, then I'm sure I got figures on how badly it affects smaller parties.

The American system is a FPTP system too, just even less democratic than our own.

View Post



i suspect there is either democracy or no democracy, so u cant consider something as "less democratic", or else, every country which clames to be democratic will be in some way "less democratic" but still "democratic".. if u get me. So were we consider democracy, it differs from country to country but is still considered as being "democratic".

#31 ermd

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 15 2005, 01:37 PM)
i suspect there is either democracy or no democracy, so u cant consider something as "less democratic", or else, every country which clames to be democratic will be in some way "less democratic" but still "democratic".. if u get me. So were we consider democracy, it differs from country to country but is still considered as being "democratic".

View Post


Yeah, and there is the immediate hipocrisy in-built into any western-styled democracy.

Now, a lot of people would brand Libya a "dictatorship", same with Cuba too. Yet these two countries offer perhaps the most democratic systems seen today. In Libya, they have a single head of state, but decision making is carried out not at national level, not at regional level, not at a local council level, not at a town level, but at a neighbourhood level. No where else in the world is this type of democratic control seen.

And in Cuba, there is once again a single head of state, but no political parties exist in the government, it is wholly comprised of locally elected representatives and trade unions, rights groups etc. No corporate funding for hidden agendas, no big overbearing party(s), an equal chance for all to be represented and direct democracy in the hands of the people.

You see, democracy is really nothing to do with getting your vote every four years, because once a party has bought power in a western-styled democracy, it is never representative of the people. If it even won the majority of the votes in the first place.

#32 AppleCore

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 06:12 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 15 2005, 06:03 PM)
QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 15 2005, 01:37 PM)
i suspect there is either democracy or no democracy, so u cant consider something as "less democratic", or else, every country which clames to be democratic will be in some way "less democratic" but still "democratic".. if u get me. So were we consider democracy, it differs from country to country but is still considered as being "democratic".

View Post


Yeah, and there is the immediate hipocrisy in-built into any western-styled democracy.

Now, a lot of people would brand Libya a "dictatorship", same with Cuba too. Yet these two countries offer perhaps the most democratic systems seen today. In Libya, they have a single head of state, but decision making is carried out not at national level, not at regional level, not at a local council level, not at a town level, but at a neighbourhood level. No where else in the world is this type of democratic control seen.

And in Cuba, there is once again a single head of state, but no political parties exist in the government, it is wholly comprised of locally elected representatives and trade unions, rights groups etc. No corporate funding for hidden agendas, no big overbearing party(s), an equal chance for all to be represented and direct democracy in the hands of the people.

You see, democracy is really nothing to do with getting your vote every four years, because once a party has bought power in a western-styled democracy, it is never representative of the people. If it even won the majority of the votes in the first place.

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u seem to go on about "less democratic" and "non democratic" and even "dictatorship".. yet.. u end it with sayin "western-styled democracy", so... isnt that still democracy in its own way??

#33 sparky

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 02:29 PM

What does anyone think about these new "City Acacdemy" schools the government are investing in. They will cost £5billion and there will eventually be over 200 of them.

They are designed to raise attainment in areas where there were schools which were failing it's pupils.

One recently got a severely bad report from Ofsted. But some of them are doing pretty well. Apparently private sector companies sponsor them and pay for them. smile.gif


Mark

#34 Discogirl17

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 02:43 PM

Maybe a good idea. I'm undecided so far.
Half ideas,half quality, half a million pound law suit!

#35 ermd

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 15 2005, 06:12 PM)
u seem to go on about "less democratic" and "non democratic" and even "dictatorship".. yet.. u end it with sayin "western-styled democracy", so... isnt that still democracy in its own way??

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Not by the dictionary definition. But perhaps by popular misconception.

#36 djh1878

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Jun 12 2005, 08:16 PM)
I would suggest that an illegal war costing over $200,000,000,000 is a lot more taxpayers' money which you should be concerned about than will ever be given in aid. Taxpayers' money that has paid for the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians.

A war was not the way to correct the situation in Iraq. The country is a far worse place to live in now than at any tme under Saddam's reign, even during the height of UN sancitons. And for you to be naive enough to believe that a war waged by rich foreign countries will ever result in democracy for the poor country on the other end, I find unbelievable.

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thumbsup.gif Socialism lives! biggrin.gif
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#37 ermd

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE(djh1878 @ Jun 16 2005, 08:26 PM)
thumbsup.gif  Socialism lives!  biggrin.gif

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Hell yes! ¡Viva la revolución!

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#38 AppleCore

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE(sparky @ Jun 16 2005, 03:29 PM)
What does anyone think about these new "City Acacdemy" schools the government are investing in. They will cost £5billion and there will eventually be over 200 of them.

They are designed to raise attainment in areas where there were schools which were failing it's pupils.

One recently got a severely bad report from Ofsted. But some of them are doing pretty well.  Apparently private sector companies sponsor them and pay for them. smile.gif

View Post



that dosnt work because its partly govt funded. Private firms know that if they get into a contract with the govt, they dont exactly have to perform to get their earnings. its like an easy ride. no matter how bad the service, u know that the govt will fund it.. eg: "City Academy" schools, "PPP's", "Reliance" Prison services and the list goes on. if left to the market, what makes for the customer happy and satisfied survives, what dosnt dies. So success is only earn't by those work for it.

#39 AppleCore

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:17 PM

Capitalism, Communism, Socialism or any "ism" based on a political or economical idea is not perfect. One is better that the other in either of its fields.. personally i favour capitalism.

#40 ermd

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE(itsmereally @ Jun 16 2005, 10:17 PM)
Capitalism, Communism, Socialism or any "ism" based on a political or economical idea is not perfect. One is better that the other in either of its fields.. personally i favour capitalism.

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Well, that depends doesn't it? Everyone has a diffferent view of "perfect"? In my view, perfect would be a society without exploitation, deprivation, war, discrimination and inequality. Hence why I am a Marxist. Freedom, equality and liberty.





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