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General Election


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Poll: Which party do you want to win the election? (50 member(s) have cast votes)

Which party do you want to win the election?

  1. Labour (13 votes [26.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.00%

  2. Conservatives (3 votes [6.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  3. Liberal Democrats (13 votes [26.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.00%

  4. SNP (9 votes [18.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.00%

  5. UKIP (1 votes [2.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  6. Scottish Socialists (3 votes [6.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  7. Green Party (2 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  8. Other (1 votes [2.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  9. Don't Care! (5 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 djh1878

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE(ally @ Apr 7 2005, 07:01 PM)
The website for the Loony party is just toooo funny! You've got to read it! laugh.gif

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Bring on the 99p coin! laugh.gif

Amongst other genious policies... rolleyes.gif
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#42 sparky

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 08:50 PM

I can't vote but I'll say I support Labour. Tony Blair is a good strong leader in my opinion, which is what no other party has really!


Mark

#43 Dave

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:02 PM

at last a man who knows his politics!

If i am not here i am somewhere else



#44 superstar

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:38 PM

Yeah i am 18 and i will definately be voting Labour.

As far as i can see they are the only party with who i agree with and will make the country a better place. I really really dread to think what Scotland would be like if the Tories won the election!

#45 Kevin_Kilbane

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:42 PM

Not another Communist debate. I think its clear Bred and ermdeviation love it, while others such as myself and Dave hate it.

Im 17, but if I was 18 I would vote (yes I would vote given the struggle there was to get the vote for men in the 1800s) the party that has the lowest income tax.

Ive not read the manifesto's etc, but I quite like the Liberal Democrats. Regardless of what all thes Blair Bashers say, he has been a good PM. I think if Gordon Brown becomes PM, he'd get my vote.

#46 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:54 PM

So you would vote BNP if they offered the lowest tax rates?

Edit: You do know the Liberal Democrats are the only mainstream party who want to raise income tax right?

#47 Kevin_Kilbane

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ Apr 7 2005, 09:54 PM)
So you would vote BNP if they offered the lowest tax rates?

Edit: You do know the Liberal Democrats are the only mainstream party who want to raise income tax right?

View Post



Yes, but I like the party and their leader - Kennedy a real scot.

As for the BNP. No, I am completely against all there racial crap. I would not vote for them regardless of their policies.

Could you answer this question: You go on and on about taxing the rich - If I decide to train up as a Chartered Accountant, I could be on 100k by the time I am 30. Why is it right to take a lot of this money off of me when I have worked to get to that position and came from a one salary family?


#48 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:10 PM

If you are within the top 1% of earners (£100k+), then it is within the rights and democratic power of the other 99% to vote for a government which promises to tax you heavily. That is the simple reality of it.

Ideologically, I would say that you should expect a salary which would allow you to live comfortably, as should every worker. A worker in Taiwan who is on a 12 hour shift for £1.50 a day works a hell of a lot harder than you will ever know, yet is not rewarded for it.

#49 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:11 PM

Note that under a fully evolved communist society, money would be abolished and you wouldn't really have a job anyway biggrin.gif

#50 Kevin_Kilbane

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:20 PM

So effectively the once working class person who has worked himself up the "class" structure gets taxed by his own people?

No, it doesnt make sense.

As for the work aspect - yes the Taiwan person works harder but to suggest my level of work is not hard if completle balls.

#51 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:20 PM)
So effectively the once working class person who has worked himself up the "class" structure gets taxed by his own people?

No, it doesnt make sense.

View Post



The goal of socialism/communism is to end the class struggle altogether.

Under Capitalism, the class structure manifests itself through owners/workers. The theory being (very basically) if the means of production are controlled by and for the workers, then social classes can be eliminated. The State itself is seen as a tool in the class struggle which must be utilised by the working classes to overthrow the bourgeoisie ruling class. Through Socialism, a society is created where all are seen as equals and there are no classes as such. Thus the State no longer has a purpose to play and will "wither away".

Brief summary of marxist theory biggrin.gif



#52 Kevin_Kilbane

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:37 PM

Your theory is crap. The class structure doesn't even exist anymore and everyone being equal is a lot of nonsense. Why should Doctors be on equal terms with binmen?

Our society is fine as it is now. You'll go on about there being so much poverty, etc.

Fact - Britain has one of the best social welface benefits systems in place to help people in poverty. .

Compare this to one of your "Socialist" type countries - CUBA. Cubans are in horrendous poverty. A family friend went there in the Summer and the Rep was begging them to give the locals their toiletries because they couldnt afford their own.

How is Socialism/Communism/whatever the hell you call it benefiting "the people".

Just want to add: I am intriguied by your response to the "working class" on "working class" tax. In the Class Structure, I would not be seen to be "working class". My parents and their families were, but, my parents have climbed the class ladder so they are now "middle class". Yet, I do not see how that makes me better than a "working class" citizen. Infact, I think we are equal. It is idiots like you that believe the class structure still exists and that the poor get poorer etc etc. They don't. Get over it mate.

#53 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
Your theory is crap.  The class structure doesn't even exist anymore and everyone being equal is a lot of nonsense.  Why should Doctors be on equal terms with binmen? 

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Its not my theory, try Karl Marx. Of course the class structure exists, I just told you, owners/workers. Marxists would say that everyone should work for the better of society rather than their own personal gain, which is a product of capitalism.
QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
Our society is fine as it is now.  You'll go on about there being so much poverty, etc.   

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That is your own opinion. If it seems fine to you that a boy of 2 years old can be shot at will with an air gun, thats your own opinion smile.gif
QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
Fact - Britain has one of the best social welface benefits systems in place to help people in poverty. . 

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And why do you think this is? Due to post-war Labour reforms. Socialist reforms. Capitalism does nothing to aid the less fortunate.
QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
Compare this to one of your "Socialist" type countries - CUBA.  Cubans are in horrendous poverty.  A family friend went there in the Summer and the Rep was begging them to give the locals their toiletries because they couldnt afford their own. 

View Post

 

Actually, "poverty" itself is a product of capitalism, when someone finds them self with an inability to meet the financial demands of a society of surplus, so technically you can't get "poverty" in a socialist country.

As for why they are poor, this is due to the collapse of the USSR which provided $4-5billion annually and due to the illegal american trade embargo. So in reality the "poverty" is a creation of capitalism too.

Surprisingly, Cuba actually has the best performing healthcare system in the Western Hemisphere and a highly credible public education system.

Toiletries are a consumer good, which have been rationed in Cuba since the collapse of the USSR. Its not they can't afford them, its the fact the US won't allow them to trade.
QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
How is Socialism/Communism/whatever the hell you call it benefiting "the people". 

View Post

 

Well, I have already mentioned the healhcare/schools aspect. There is the fact workers are given control of their factories, farms, plantations rather than a capitalist fatcat who wants to bleed them dry as opposed to let them live a reasonable life. Odd, isn't it, that Cuba has a higher standard of living than all of the other USA lapdog central american republics?
QUOTE(Kevin_Kilbane @ Apr 7 2005, 10:37 PM)
 
Just want to add: I am intriguied by your response to the "working class" on "working class" tax.  In the Class Structure, I would not be seen to be "working class".  My parents and their families were, but, my parents have climbed the class ladder so they are now "middle class".  Yet, I do not see how that makes me better than a "working class" citizen.  Infact, I think we are equal.  It is idiots like you that believe the class structure still exists and that the poor get poorer etc etc.  They don't.  Get over it mate. 

View Post

 

I do not see the class structure as working/middle/upper as I have already stated. You obviously do see yourself as "better" than a "working class" person, with reference to your binmen comments smile.gif If you are earning £100k+ per year and have one child to support, and someone else is earning £19k as a single parent doing two jobs, then you are not equal at all. And to me the scariest part is, you are definately not equal before the law. You could afford a much better lawyer on £100k+ than someone on £19k. This is why laissez-faire economic ideas breed injustice.

Finally, you must be incredibly badly informed, or simply stupid to not realise that the poor do get poorer. You do accounts yes? You should know of the basic economic problem. Under capitalism, into the bargain comes profit as well as satisfying needs/wants. This creates a vaccum as your workers (who you want to pay less) are also your customers (who you want to charge more). Its covered in Marx's Theory Of Surplus Value. Read it, then come back and argue some more.

As an additional comment, the Cuban Revolutionaries were devotees to Marxism-Lenninism which states that a revolution should be encouraged "when there is good opportunity" as opposed to the pure marxist view that a revolution should only take place in an industrialised country. Some would also use this as argument as to why the USSR, Cuba and China all sufferred - they were agrarian populations, not industrial ones.

#54 ermd

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:12 PM

Now my head really hurts, that was too much thinking. And I have to get up at 7.15 sad.gif

#55 Shaun

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:56 PM

Lol, I haven't done modern studies or history and I don't know what a lot of these words mean (except Communism as I've read Animal Farm and 1984 tongue.gif). But I agree: the people who make extreme amounts of money should be more heavily taxed.

For example. Look at the cast of Friends. They got paid, what, a million dollars an episode near the end? Say this million dollars is a weeks work. Now look at someone who earns £500 a week, and works exactly the same hours.

This simply isn't fair, and the amount of money some people get is rediculous. You aren't physically earning that £1,000,000, your basically just being given it.

People like doctors and dentists, I think deserve the higher salaries. It is very specialised and difficult courses and training they have to go through. They earn what they make - sitting in your bed and night learning lines for a TV sitcom and then regurgutating it does not warrant a million dollars.

#56 Shaun

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:59 PM

Oh and are the tories the lib dems on the conservatives? I can never remember.

All the tories want to do is make the rich richer and the poor poorer - and for that reason it's typically the well off, 'snobby' people who vote for them.

#57 coca

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 12:04 AM

That's probably the longest post in the history of postage, ermdeviation laugh.gif
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#58 Shaun

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 12:06 AM

Lol, don't know about that, that maths guy 'Shadonadomi' or something used to post maths crap metres long.

#59 ermd

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 08:25 AM

Lol, I remember that one. Some of that stuff was quite interesting biggrin.gif

I don't do history or modern studies either, but I do study political theory and economics in my own time, fascinating! biggrin.gif

#60 Shaun

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:42 AM

I'm really interested in the whole communism thing, but I know little of what actually happened in Russia. Can you recommend any websites?





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