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Socialism etc. - HSN forum - Page 4

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Socialism etc.


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#61 ermd

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:03 PM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 11 2005, 10:01 PM)
So are you saying socialist party are the minority? As though don't affect.

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What!?!? English isn't your mother-tongue, surely!?!

#62 cork screw

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:05 PM

So socialist play not part in economics?

#63 ermd

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:06 PM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 11 2005, 10:05 PM)
So socialist play not part in economics?

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You misunderstand my friend biggrin.gif Socialists would involve a large state control of the economy - run for the people, not for profit.

#64 cork screw

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:07 PM

but wouldn't that create slackers, as it doesn't provide incentive to work as you don't reap more rewards. blink.gif

#65 ermd

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 11 2005, 10:07 PM)
but wouldn't that create slackers, as it doesn't provide incentive to working as you don't reap more rewards. blink.gif

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Where is the present reward? You go to work so as your bosses make even more profits? Here's a simple analogy:

You work in say, a chocolate factory. Each day you get paid £50 for your work. Yet the company can go on and sell the chocolate you made for £400. Now, you have sold £400 worth of labour-capital for only £50 (to your boss). This is why socialists see it as important that workers gain control of their workplaces, whether it is via unions, sydicalism, etc.

The idea of incentive is not given much weight by most Marxist socialists - as the only true winners are the bosses.



#66 ermd

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE(Dave @ May 11 2005, 09:41 PM)

How is forcefully taking 14 towns over and rebuilding them mainstream politcs never mind the NHS

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I don't know of any force ever used myself. Are you trying to suggest the Labour party were violent!?!!?

And if the NHS is extreme, then most of the developed world, excusing the USA (doesn't really belong in that catagory anyway), is pretty damned extreme. Nigh on every developed country has a free health service. Would you seriously consider the deconstruction of the NHS, Dave? Tory tongue.gif

Blair's "modernization" programme in the UK is just another Tory idea with a different name, "Privatisation". It's just one big euphemism.

#67 cork screw

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE(ermdeviation @ May 11 2005, 11:11 PM)
QUOTE(cork screw @ May 11 2005, 10:07 PM)
but wouldn't that create slackers, as it doesn't provide incentive to working as you don't reap more rewards. blink.gif

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Where is the present reward? You go to work so as your bosses make even more profits? Here's a simple analogy:

You work in say, a chocolate factory. Each day you get paid £50 for your work. Yet the company can go on and sell the chocolate you made for £400. Now, you have sold £400 worth of labour-capital for only £50 (to your boss). This is why socialists see it as important that workers gain control of their workplaces, whether it is via unions, sydicalism, etc.

The idea of incentive is not given much weight by most Marxist socialists - as the only true winners are the bosses.

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Well isn't it how many qualification or the how hard you work which determines the amount of money you earn. I thought that's fairer then letting everyone get the same amount, as on person may not put as much effort as the next person? blink.gif

#68 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 10:21 AM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 12 2005, 09:48 AM)
Well isn't it how many qualification or the how hard you work which determines the amount of money you earn. I thought that's fairer then letting everyone get the same amount, as on person may not put as much effort as the next person?  blink.gif

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But if you come from a poor area, you are likely to go to a poorer quality school, with more disruptive pupils and therefore come away with fewer qualifications and at a lower level. Where there is economic inequality, it breeds social injustice.

Also, just because you aren't academically good, doesn't mean you can't or won't work as hard as the next person - not all "smart" people are good at exams. I know people who work in offices and I know people who work in vehicle depots/factories. I can tell you now, that they work just as hard as each other - though manual labour is obviously more "tiring".

If you are a lawyer, why should you be able to charge £450 an hour for some advice? Would you consider that fair on the lawyer's secretary who's working for £4.50 an hour? Do you think that lawyer is working a hundred times harder than his secretary? Somehow, I think not.

The idea behind socialism is that human beings have the capacity to see things on a bigger scalem, to care about each other and work for the betterment of society, not them greedy selves.

#69 bred

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 10:27 AM

Furthermore, more qualifications does not necessarily equate to a better or higher paid job.
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#70 cork screw

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 12:32 PM

huh.gif it does in most cases. I didn't just say qualification, they could be a business person, it all requires effort.

Since there hasn't ever been a socialist country, what can we base our opinions on?

#71 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:14 PM

The fact that life itself is a struggle for over 4 billion of the world's inhabitants.

I would say that because Karl Marx was an economist (well and a bit of a sociologist tongue.gif) that his theories undoubtedly hold a lot of weight. He knew what he was talking about. Also, I do believe that Marx and Engels are the number 1 selling political theorists of all time, so more people know their work than anyone elses.

His theory is based on the idea that when a society gets to the stage where its structure prohibits the progression of the human race, there is inevitably a revolution. If you look back through history, his theory holds true. So surely it is just a matter of time? Or does anyone seriously believe we live in a perfect society?

#72 cork screw

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:22 PM

smile.gif there needs to be enough socialists to make a change. Would the system you propse all for people to disagree with your system or do they all agree?

#73 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 12 2005, 01:22 PM)
smile.gif there needs to be enough socialists to make a change. Would the system you propse all for people to disagree with your system or do they all agree?
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I presume you mean "allow"? Yes, anyone would be free to voice their opposition to the system (infact expanding human freedom is exactly what the system is based on), but the theory goes that it would only be a small minority, the present ruling capitalist class who would object as they lose control of the means of production. And they are by far a small minority.

#74 cork screw

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:47 PM

So socialism is a revolutional idea. Never tried and means tested?

#75 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:52 PM

I think one of the main problems is the misrepresentation of socialism through history - USSR, China, Cuba, N.Korea. These were all dictatorships who used the working class as a tool to their own ends, rather than the working class using the state as a tool of its own.

The likes of Cuba and the USSR were going along the right path in their early years. Under Lenin I would say the USSR would definately have worked closer to the original intentions, rather than the totalistarian dictatorship it became under Stalin. And it was the collapse of the USSR that through Cuba into trouble. Plus the illegal American trade embargo, but I'll leave that for now.

#76 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:55 PM

QUOTE(cork screw @ May 12 2005, 01:47 PM)
So socialism is a revolutional idea. Never tried and means tested?

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Never on planet earth anyways tongue.gif.

#77 cork screw

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 02:17 PM

laugh.gif

Confident it'll work then?

Would there be equality in everything?

#78 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 02:38 PM

I have total confindence it would work.

Equality is a subjective term remember. One person's equality is another person's injustice. Equality in everything? I don't quite understand what you mean. If you think that it would cause the human race to become a boring robotic entity, that is not what is encouraged biggrin.gif.

Equality would mean the end of exploitation of man by man (or woman by woman!) It would mean that all of life's essential's would be provided to everyone, not only those who can afford them. The sad fact is, in today's world, the majority of humanity has its some of its basic human rights removed (food, water, shelter, life).

The USA could have used all of the money it's spent killing Iraqis to fund world anti-hunger efforts for the next 6 years. It could have immunised the entire global population against the six most deadly diseases for fifty years.

Yet the American government chooses for its funds to be spent on the army, the vanguard of Corporate America! It is a disgrace, and one which should not be tolerated.

#79 djh1878

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 02:50 PM

*Sees a chance of blatant advertising*

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#80 ermd

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 02:57 PM

This just symbolises the left's problem here in the UK - sooooo splintered. The leftist vote is broken between many small, one-seat-contesting parties. I reckon if we could get an organised leftist party, our parliamentary politics would be more interesting. Proportional representation would help too. Give us a fair representation of our votes dammit!





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